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Stigmata: Sign from God or Skin Condition?

50 Responses

  1. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    For me, a start would be to ask how could a normal human fake this, what would he need to do, to make these marks look authentic. The essence of falsification, that is what is needed, anything else is just confirmational bias, and one has to admit that these cases have a lot to gain, if they are accepted as being true.

    On the other hand, why would any god go to such lengths and use such a flawed method, that is open to rampant abuse, to convey a message, which is usually confused and open to interpretation by anyone for any purpose they deem fit. One would expect a god to be able to pass her message on in a much clear manner, after all humans are good at doing this, so a god should be even better at doing this.

    This failure almost seems to suggest that gods do not exist.

  2. P.R.Margeot says:

    I’ll break my own rules concerning the commenter above and writes a few words. I did say: ‘ignore him’ completely, his place is not here, his ideas are foreign, he is in error.No, he is not even in error: he is in the void, THE void…

    Yet, one should show some charity and show some toleration for a soul who is obviously searching for the Truth, he is desparate for the Truth, he has been influenced by the wrong people and books. He was born and bred a Catholic, he knows as much if not more than the average Catholic. What a waste of talent, to deliberately turn his back on Jesus Christ, the Holy Trinity. I know he does not like it when I say this , but I will say it again: every day I pray for him and two close relatives of mine who have also lost the Faith, that these 3 souls be touched by the grace of God before they die. Other readers may also do the same, we are talking here of eternal salvation: it is serious business. The commenter above must have heard about the last 4 things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, or Hell.

    I have a suspicion I know the commenter from a long time ago. I think I did meet him a very, very long time ago. It was in a town called QB, where a very pious old Catholic lady (Mrs L) took school boys as boarders in her house. I had a friend who was a boarder there and I think that I met the commenter above there, That would be a small world.

    Kyrie Eleison

  3. P.R.Margeot says:

    Two small corrections : first line , write, not writes.
    desperate, not desparate.

  4. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    Shame, PR, Would you like to know why your heaven and hell have not fear for me? Could you try and work it out for yourself? Hint, if you do not work it out for yourself, then Santa will not bring you any presents for Christmas.

  5. Dan Maur says:

    Kyrie Eleison, I am breaking one of my own rules by responding to persons who post personal attacks against others. Use your head. Stigmata can be a skin condition but it usually is a mental condition. And I don’t mean to be flip. These people have a mental state in some cases that physical changes in their body spontaneously occur. That is a sweeping generalization. The whole mind over matter thing is what I suggest is happening. I have a friend who is allergic to cats. He is so allergic that even when mentioning cats to him he will start to develop sniffles and a rash then hives and shortness of breath. Now clearly it is not the cat that is causing the reaction. His mind is cued to produce histamine when cats are mentioned in anticipation of anaphylaxis.Science can easily explain stigmata. There is no mystery and certainly no divine intervention. If god cared to intervene in the lives of people would you not expect that instead of helping you find your car keys he would be feeding the starving?

  6. P.R.Margeot says:

    The arrogance of the man,…..never mind, I will keep praying for him, no matter what. Remember: we all have a conscience(even the commenter above has one) and our conscience IS G-D communicating to us, from G-d. The commenter above HAS a conscience and that is proof enough of G-d.
    I do not want to debate with the commenter above, but will leave him now on the question of conscience. I am re-assured to see that he reads the S.C.assiduously.

  7. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    No I do not read the Southern Cross, it just pops up on my facebook news feed, and if the story is interesting enough for me to comment on, then I will. Btw, I really think it’s so cute, the way your religious folk write word God, that – in the middle just shrieks respect. I am sure if god actually existed,he would give you a gold star for that.

    And as we all know, the reason you will not debate me, is because you know that you will be handed the back contents of your pants.

  8. P.R.Margeot says:

    If my memory serves me right, the two other commenters dealt with you all right last time. They are redoubtable debaters, don’t forget ! Your future is sombre, bleak, you need prayers and sympathy. I am certain that you will be touched by G-d’s grace one of these days. Just open your heart, just say an AVE every day ,at night, before going to bed. …’Pray for us, sinners, now and the hour of our deathy, amen’ I appeal to other readers to do the same for you, they can do it incognito. I should have done the same, but then, how on earth would you have known that there are other fellow Catholics praying for you. Courage, you are totally alone, From the dreadful VOID in which you are now living, you deserve to re-join the fellowship of Catholics, receive the grace through the good sacraments, listen to good sermons, and live in eager expectation that eternal happiness is waiting for you. Remember: we need a little humility.
    Oremus pro invicem.

  9. Veritas says:

    Padre Pio is an excellent example of how somebody becomes a Catholic saint. Interesting that the real reason Pio was beatified was because he had such a following of obsessed believers. The Church didnt really want to, but public pressure won over. If you don’t believe me then go read more than one book.
    I could respect the church if they behaved as Jesus would.

  10. Vincent Couling says:

    PRM speaks of the “arrogance” of Mike de Fleuriot, and exhorts us all to “a little humility”. He speaks of Mike being in a dreadful “VOID”.

    Just to let casual visitors to this site know that PRM can be quite arrogant, and can often fail to display the very humility he exhorts in others!

    He has recently suggested that without the Tridentine Mass, there is no Catholic Church! A clear and blatant attack on the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. He has spoken in glowing terms of the head of the SSPX, Bishop Bernard Fellay … a man who has recently demanded the right to say such things as “there are errors in the council” and that “the new Mass is evil” … while still being regarded as a Catholic!

    PRM echoes the mind of Bishop Fellay, not only in regarding the Novus Ordo Mass as invalid, but in his shameless disregard for the Second Vatican Council … he has claimed that VII went wrong, //very wrong,// errors crept in, he maintains. (See https://www.scross.co.za/2012/12/latin-means-centralisation/ … also for a post containing more details on the extent of Bishop Fellay’s mischief, which has now impugned the integrity of the Roman Pontiff himself!)

    PRM should perhaps carefully reconsider who is truly the most arrogant, least humble, contributer on these threads …

  11. P.R.Margeot says:

    “Obsessed” believers? writes Veritas.

    “Public pressure won over”, “the Church did not really want to “.

    Veritas obviously has extreme reserves about all this business of saints, veneration, miracles, miraculous medals (?) etc…you know all these things that enlightened people do not do or follow…

    However, let’s hear more from Veritas, it is always encouraging to have new blood in the S.C.

    p.s. has Veritas heard/read about the Saint’s attacks from the devil ? Attacks at night in his room and outside his room ? Am sure he has.

  12. P.R.Margeot says:

    Now Mr Victoria, I never said the novus ordo was invalid. Do not put words in my mouth, please.
    I maintain that the Tridentine is the M.O.A.T., that the ‘market’ will decide what it wants, that nobody will take the NOM from you, that the Pope has recognized what the M.O.A.T. was/is and has declared that it is the extraordinary (rite of the) mass.

    No need to feel threatened. You are quite safe where you are. We will indeed speak more and more often of the Priestly Society of St Pius X, without which the mass would have disappeared from the surface of the earth. The Church will one day say thank you to that Society which was ruthlessly suppressed by the conciliar Authorities. Now we have a good Pope who realized that some corrections were needed after the council.

    The future is exciting, big things are coming, some are fearful of the changes. Understandable.
    A tree is judged by its fruits.

    Asperges me, Domine…

  13. P.R.Margeot says:

    Apologies to Mr Couling : I called him Victoria without having realized of the change he has made. I however admire him to have the courage to write under his own real name.

  14. Veritas says:

    PRM – Pio was considered a fraud by 2 Popes. “The founder of Rome’s Catholic university hospital concluded Padre Pio was “an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited people’s credulity”. The Vatican, deeply suspicious, banned him from saying Mass in public”

    Pio had ‘stigmata’ in the wrong place! Nail through the hand would rip out.

    Pio probably had Munchhausens syndrome, he was a sick child and possibly mentally ill. Visions of the Devil as naked dancing girls and such like is a bit nuts. I suffer from terrible nightmares, I know what it is like to think they are real, luckily I’m quite rational and I am able to deduce that they are simply a product of my mind and not a sign from the Devil or similar. Come on PRM, you really think that if somebody says they have visions they are to be believed as truth?

    there is a good article here http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=2047151 but it is one of many.

    PRM – this comment is interesting from you “Veritas obviously has extreme reserves about all this business of saints, veneration, miracles, miraculous medals (?) etcyou know all these things that enlightened people do not do or follow”

    ENLIGHTENED people? You mean like The Enlightenment? Or in a Buddhist fashion? I’m asking because when I read a fair bit of The Catechism of the Catholic Church there was no mention of ignoring some of the more antiquated practices, no mention of some people do this but the enlightened do that.. Where is the guidance from the Church saying that the enlightened Catholic can take with a pinch of salt such things as The perpetual virginity of Mary, transubstantiation, the Assumption of Mary or whatever?

    Where does it say that the Catholic 10 Commandments are different from those of other Christians because? In case you are wondering commandment 2 for most Christians is not to make graven images of anything in Heaven. So all the images of Mary, Jesus and Saint this and that are against the words of the King James Bible…

    PRM – I do have complete reservations about Sainthood, miracles and similar, especially those of Padre Pio. It would seem that the Vatican does too, or at least did till pedophile cover-upper Ratzinger became Pontiff, a sad step back to the days of the Inquisition!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/17/religion.childprotection

  15. P.R.Margeot says:

    Sorry again: above, the word “suppressed” should read ” persecuted”.

  16. Vincent Couling says:

    Would PRM like to explain, then, precisely what he meant by the statement that Without the [Tridentine] Mass there is no Catholic Church? If, that is, he meant something other that what the words mean when taken at face value?

  17. Veritas says:

    Hi PRM – I spent some time writing a reply to you, unfortunately the moderator appears to have blocked my response. It would appear that this site is not one for discussion and free speech :-(

    Maybe it was because I questioned too much? “Seek and ye shall find”? It would be good for moderator to explain why my response was blocked if it was. I referenced my response, there was no bad language…

  18. P.R.Margeot says:

    @ Veritas: my address is armor@telkomsa.net

  19. Veritas says:

    I’ve tried again in case there was an error…

    PRM Pio was considered a fraud by 2 Popes. The founder of Romes Catholic university hospital concluded Padre Pio was an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited peoples credulity. The Vatican, deeply suspicious, banned him from saying Mass in public

    Pio had stigmata in the wrong place! Nail through the hand would rip out.

    Pio probably had Munchhausens syndrome, he was a sick child and possibly mentally ill. Visions of the Devil as naked dancing girls and such like is a bit nuts. I suffer from terrible nightmares, I know what it is like to think they are real, luckily Im quite rational and I am able to deduce that they are simply a product of my mind and not a sign from the Devil or similar. Come on PRM, you really think that if somebody says they have visions they are to be believed as truth?

    there is a good article here http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=2047151 but it is one of many.

    PRM this comment is interesting from you Veritas obviously has extreme reserves about all this business of saints, veneration, miracles, miraculous medals (?) etcyou know all these things that enlightened people do not do or follow

    ENLIGHTENED people? You mean like The Enlightenment? Or in a Buddhist fashion? Im asking because when I read a fair bit of The Catechism of the Catholic Church there was no mention of ignoring some of the more antiquated practices, no mention of some people do this but the enlightened do that.. Where is the guidance from the Church saying that the enlightened Catholic can take with a pinch of salt such things as The perpetual virginity of Mary, transubstantiation, the Assumption of Mary or whatever?

    Where does it say that the Catholic 10 Commandments are different from those of other Christians because? In case you are wondering commandment 2 for most Christians is not to make graven images of anything in Heaven. So all the images of Mary, Jesus and Saint this and that are against the words of the King James Bible

    PRM I do have complete reservations about Sainthood, miracles and similar, especially those of Padre Pio. It would seem that the Vatican does too, or at least did till pedophile cover-upper Ratzinger became Pontiff, a sad step back to the days of the Inquisition!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/17/religion.childprotection

  20. P.R.Margeot says:

    Right Mr Couling, I will reply directly to you.
    (Before doing so, It is exactly as I was saying it should be : that we will talk more and more about the Priestly Society. That Society is now practically on the map and certainly on the radars of the progressives).

    By my statement, I meant that ” without the M.O.A.T. the future of the Holy Church would be bleak, gloomy , nearly hopeless”.*** And that is why the good Pope did the most courageous thing (possibly, the Historians will decide) of his pontificate: the ‘liberation’ of the M.O.A.T. Ever since, more and more graces and blessings have been showering the Earth. I repeat : thanks to heavens, NEVER was the flow of graces and blessings ever stopped COMPLETELY : thanks to the traditional priests and bishops , small as their numbers were in the early 70’s, So we see: Providence was watching, that mass was not destined for the “oubliettes”( a french word ) as the progressives and revolutionaries had planned….

    The prelate who was largely responsible for this salvage in a heroic way, at the cost of general persecution and a strict “Wall of Silence” was Mgr Marcel Lefebvre. He was aided and guided by the Holy Spirit.

    We are fair here : there were quite a number of individual priests, old priests who , after the council, just could not abandon the mass of Ages, the mass of their ordination, and who in private carried on. Their influence was limited, but they did count, let’s not forget. Then there was Mgr de Castro-Mayer of Brazil who basically was like Mgr Lefebvre, but his actions and heroic resistance were for his Diocese mainly.15 years after his death, his priests did not carry on the struggle.

    When I say that grace and blessings are increasing gradually in the world, the main ‘dynamo’ is the Priestly Society of St Pius X with its 561 priests, 215 seminarians, 42 pre-seminarians, 119 Brothers, 185 Sisters, 84 Oblates, plus many friendly Societies and monasteries, around the world. Add all these together, one has an impressive figure.

    Let’s also talk straight without ambiguity: in 1988, after the historic consecration of the Bishops ,by Mgr Lefebvre, within weeks another traditional Society was formed(St Peter) who had the same statutes as the original one of Mgr Lefebvre. That Society was formed to conteract the influence of Mgr Lefebvre and was/is under the strict control of the diocesan Bishops who tolerate their existence. Then the Institute of Christ the king was formed, then the Good Shepherd was formed, all in opposition to the original Society of Mgr Lefebvre.

    The stunning thing is that all these opponents did not manage to dent the progress and influence of the Priestly Society of St Pius X : on the contrary… Now if that latter Society did not have Divine blessings, it would have foundered in the early 70’s.

    If we ask any Catholic in any parish today whether they have heard of any of the OTHER traditional Catholic Societies, I want to bet my last shirt that they would have no clue of what we are talking about. You see the Wall of Silence… Now, remember the Berlin Wall and you know what happened to that wall…That’s why I keep saying that exciting times are coming. We ain’t seen nothin’ yet….

    Introibo ad altare Dei

    *** that’s my personal view: not anybody else’s

  21. Vincent Couling says:

    PRM says “By my statement, I meant that without the M.O.A.T. the future of the Holy Church would be bleak, gloomy , nearly hopeless” …

    Hmmmm … it’s one thing to express a personal opinion that without the Tridentine Mass, the Holy Church would have a future that is bleak and gloomy, nearly hopeless …

    It is \\quite another thing\\ to express a personal opinion that without the Tridentine Mass, the Church would \\cease to exist\\.

  22. P.R.Margeot says:

    Without the M.O.A.T, the future of the Church would be bleak, gloomy, nearly hopeless : that is my personal opinion. I look at the fruits on the conciliar Church’s tree since 1965 and….

    Without the M.O.A.T.and the correction of the errors of the council, and a return to Tradition, the future would be bleak and the enemies of the Church would carry on rubbing their hands in glee.
    Can one explain why those(outside) MOST opposed to the Church are the most ardent supporters of the council? That’s also a personal opinion.

    In no way could I ever say or mean that the Church would cease to exist: I am no sedevacantist, I have no sympathy or liking for them. They are worse than progressives and revolutionaries, more dangerous. The Church will cease to exist only when her Founder decides. We have the absolute assurance that she will live, freely, or persecuted, or underground, but will never disappear by the will of any man or government, or sect like the masons, for instance.

    One would need to be extremely naive these days to believe that the Church has no enemies and that the world wishes her well. No, the world is intent on destroying the Holy Church, or at best to neutralize her so that she is like one of the Protestant denominations, or like one of the non-Christian religions. When Catholics understand these realities, they will start demanding that the Truth be told and taught.

    In the meantime, Tradition is a subject that must be talked and discussed, freely, by any one.

    The Church is traditional and adapts herself to the world as time progresses: the Church of Jesus Christ the King, His social reign, His rule all these must come. Catholics have to start thinking along those lines.

    The curse of Modernism is really a curse and threat to the Church. But there is no doubt whatsoever that she will come right.

    Ad astra per ardua

  23. Vincent Couling says:

    This explanation doesn’t square with PRM’s previous opinion that “Without the [Tridentine] Mass there is no Catholic Church.”

    We note with interest the opinions of Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St Pius X, as expressed in his rambling /ca./ two-hour-long address in Canada on 28 December 2012. (We note these with especial interest since PRM has indicated his deep admiration for Bishop Fellay and the SSPX.)

    (The audio of Bishop Fellay’s address is available at http://www.sspxaudio.com/20121228-Bishop-Fellay-Conference.mp3 )

  24. Vincent Couling says:

    http://www.catholicregister.org/news/international/item/15637-sspx-head-says-vatican-sent-mixed-messages-during-reconciliation-talks provides a precis of the address … here are some most worrisome snippets:

    “The head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X said he has been receiving mixed messages from the Vatican for years over if and how the group might be brought back into full communion with the church. Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the society, claimed that top Vatican officials told him not to be discouraged by official statements from the Vatican, //because they did not reflect Pope Benedict XVI’s true feelings.//”

    “… he also called the Jewish people “enemies of the church,” saying Jewish leaders’ support of the Second Vatican Council “shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the church’s.”

    “In 2011, the Vatican gave SSPX leaders a “doctrinal preamble” to sign that outlines principles and criteria necessary to guarantee fidelity to the church and its teaching; the Vatican said the SSPX leaders would have to sign it to move toward full reconciliation. But Bishop Fellay said he repeatedly told the Vatican that the contents of the preamble — //particularly acceptance of the modern Mass and the council as expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church// — were unacceptable.”

    “He said the only reason he continued discussions with Vatican officials was because others “very close to the pope” had assured him that //the pope was not in agreement with hard-line official pronouncements from the Vatican.//”

    “Bishop Fellay said Pope Benedict wrote to him, emphasizing that full recognition required the society accept the magisterium as the judge of what is tradition, //accept the council as an integral part of tradition// and //accept that the modern Mass is valid and licit.//

    Bishop Fellay said, “Even in the council there are some things we accept,” as well as reject, however, the group wishes to be free to say, “there are errors in the council” and that ////////”the new Mass is evil.////////”

    //The group will not accept reconciliation if it means no longer being able to make such pronouncements, he said.//”

  25. P.R.Margeot says:

    A word of warning to readers who most probably know, are aware of the information, dis-information, re-information campaigns going on in the cyber world.
    There are good Traditional sites to visit. But be extremely careful of sedevacantist sites who masquarade as SSPX and cause a lot of harm to the Priestly Society headed by Mgr B. Fellay.
    Dici.org is the official site of the Priestly Society.SSPX.org is also a site from North America.
    Readers will distinguish between sites.
    In passing, Mgr Fellay was referring to Jewish leaders not the Jewish people, to the masonic leaders, and to modernists who are not friendly to the Traditional Church. If you are not friendly at all, if you spend your time attacking whatever is traditional, if you cannot stomach the Truth, I don’t know in which camp you would be. You decide.

    Then I say to myself : why on earth am I even debating/arguing about these things with other commenters. Am I not wasting my time ? All this is harmless stuff, is it not. Better ignore the whole thing…

    Hmm… but I did write that we would be talking a lot, more and more ,about that Priestly Society !
    It is on the maps now, it will carry on its great opus: to save souls for eternity, through giving the Tridentine mass, the good sacraments, teaching the good catechism, preaching good sermons, teaching the faithful regularly. The priests are an example, they wear the cassock, they are shown respect and admiration, they are approached in the streets by strangers who want blessings, they are recognized as Catholic Priests in hospital, everywhere…They are well-balanced, happy in their vocation, have no doubt at all. Their life is spent at the altar, in the confessionnal, praying, visiting the sick and dying. Those who do not have the privilege to have these good priests will one day run in circles to find one…

    I personally have letters from seminarians who told me of their unhappiness and confusion in the modernist seminaries and asking ME for advice ! Me a mere very ordinary Catholic being asked for advice. I was humbled.

    Te igitur,clementissime Pater…

  26. P.R.Margeot says:

    Back to St Padre Pio.

    VERITAS, you have unveiled enough of your ideas for others to know more or less exactly where you stand, who you are. Thank you. And your ideas are precisely those of an enlightened person, a ‘progressive’, an open, large mind, who understands nearly everything, and finally, one senses that you dearly wish to be free…free from superstition, rosaries, scapulars, statues in our churches, the Crucifix in our homes, the life of the Saints, fasting on the prescribed days and more often, retreats(Ignatian and others): ag, man, get real, liberate your mind, GROW up, enjoy life, think of your needs, your aspirations, your career, the stock exchange, travel to widen your mind, meet all sorts of people, visit the occasional buddist temple to enrich yourself….

    Veritas, dear new comer, welcome, I can see at least 3 good friends who will become your friends as well.

    A direct question : do you, Veritas, believe in Transsubstantiation ?

    Si, si, No, No

  27. P.R.Margeot says:

    WE are also waiting for a good engagement, dialogue, exchange with Mike de Fleuriot and Veritas and the progressive commenters. Exciting days are coming ! I for one cannot wait for the fruitful exchange between them. Mind you one commenter is actually very very involved with the Priestly Society of St Pius X and is becoming a beacon of information concerning that Society. I did say that we would be talking a lot more about Tradition and the Priestly Society in future. That is very good.

  28. Vincent Couling says:

    An interesting development from Vatican City sheds new light on the unfolding discussion …

    (source: http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/vatican-reaffirms-dialogue-jews-after-sspx-denouncement )

    “The Catholic Church remains committed to deepening its relations with Jews and finds it “absolutely unacceptable” to consider the Jewish people as enemies, the Vatican spokesman said.

    “It is absolutely unacceptable, impossible, to define the Jews as enemies of the church,” Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi said.

    In an audio recording posted on YouTube Dec. 30, the head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X called the Jewish people “enemies of the church,” saying Jewish leaders’ support of the Second Vatican Council “shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the church’s.”

    Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the society, said those most opposed to the church granting canonical recognition to the traditionalist society have been “the enemies of the church: the Jews, the Masons, the modernists.”

    Father Lombardi told CNS that the Second Vatican Council document “Nostra Aetate,” as well as many papal speeches and Vatican initiatives, reflected the church’s continued, firm support “of dialogue and deepening relations” with the Jewish people. “Nostra Aetate” described Christians and Jews as having a common heritage and a profound spiritual bond, and denounced any form of contempt of the Jews.”

  29. Vincent Couling says:

    How does PRM know who Bishop Fellay was referring to? We hear that he called the //Jewish people// “enemies of the church” … how does this suddenly morph into a critique of Jewish leaders alone (not that that would make all that much difference anyway)? Can PRM point us to a link where //Bishop Fellay// has clarified how his plainly spoken words actually meant something quite different?

  30. Vincent Couling says:

    The more I think about it, the more I am amused by it.

    The very people who are inclined to biblical literalism (the words of the Holy Writ mean precisely what they plainly say), and who are horrified by any scientific exegesis of holy scripture (informed by such methods as the historical-critical), seem to be inclined to want their plainly spoken words, or those of the people they most admire, to be able to mean something quite different in hindsight!

  31. P.R.Margeot says:

    Read sspx.org

  32. Vincent Couling says:

    The opinion of some unnamed person in the US branch of the SSPX hardly constitutes a clarification by //Bishop Fellay// of the intention behind his statement that Jews are the enemies of the church, now does it!

  33. P.R.Margeot says:

    You may be amused by what I write. I know how your mind works, I now know exactly how it works, I know what you are getting at. We will carry on speaking more and more about the Priestly Society and in due course you will have more info. The more we talk about that Society, the better , remember. The Holy Church also will benefit from the Society’s input/contribution to the restoration of the Faith in the Church. Remember the graces and blessings flowing from Heaven every day on the altars where the true Sacrifice of the mass is said.

    Remember also one more thing : TRUTH is often difficult to swallow. I myself do not always like to
    be told my truths. That’s why I am striving to learn humility, to acquire it. Be sure, Mr Couling, that I will get help to counteract all the un-Catholic, all the liberal currents here, all the errors being dished out as if they were true Catholic ideas. You know what I mean. I have enough humility to say that if I am stuck I will get help from people who are my superiors in intellect. I am in no way hinting that you have cornerned me. I know however that you are a redoubtable debater.
    We carry on as usual. Finally, re Mike de Fleuriot: what’s happening? Are you not talking in a brotherly fashion ? We are waiting, we are very keen to see you debate with him. Please do it for us. It looks that you were winning last time. Encouraging.

  34. Vincent Couling says:

    You are quite right, PRM, in making the observation that it shouldn’t be about “winning” a debate. It should be about recognizing each other’s humanity, and the Divine Spark in each other too. I often err in this regard. It is not that I am completely blind as to why … having been on the fringes, I really should be more sensitive to others: it is no good for a victim to become a victimiser.

    Fear not, PRM, I am not unaware of where you are coming from. In fact, I have a pretty good inkling of exactly where you are coming from. I, too, have a high regard for Catholic tradition (though I do believe that Pope Benedict was wise to say that “not every tradition that arises in the Church is a true celebration and keeping present of the mystery of Christ. There is a distorting, as well as legitimate, tradition Consequently tradition must not be considered only affirmatively but also critically. And that’s probably the source of our disagreement … in our differing critical assessments!)

    I, too, have my rosaries, and my statues (even an icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help in my office) … just as I have photographs of my loved ones (even those who have passed on the their eternal reward). How these statues can be considered graven images is completely beyond me!

    The way I read the commandment that “you shall not make for yourself a graven image” is as follows: to worship a statue as the divine is idolatry … after all, the graven image DOES already exist … it is your neighbour, who is fashioned in the image and likeness of G-d!

    G-d tells us not to create any graven image and bow down to it why? Because doing that while scorning your neighbour (be it the smelly beggar or the orphan or the widow or the effeminate homosexual with full-blown AIDS whatever your worst fear is!) is to eschew the Imago Dei! (If you did it to the least of these, you did it to me!!!)

    That is what I believe the second commandment is essentially about … not about having an icon of Our Lady, or a statue of the Risen Christ! (What Catholic would ever worship that statue anyway? The idea is patently ridiculous.)

    So yes, PRM, you and I have more in common than you might imagine. Aquinas said that concupiscence is to desire a temporal good as if it were an eternal good … I think that pretty much sums it up. A craven lust for money or power or privilege is to miss the boat. Suffering can be part of life’s lesson.

    My apologies if I’ve been too hard on you … I need to strive to meet you as a fellow Catholic, a fellow human being in the Imago Dei, who has valuable insights and unique gifts and charisms.

    I should put up a post-it …to remind myself of what //really// matters … “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” …

    Peace and blessings.

  35. P.R.Margeot says:

    Thank you very much. It is much appreciated. I have tried very, very hard not to do to others what I would not like them to do to me. As I get older, I am discovering things in another light, and I am getting happier, believe me . Without false humility, I will say that my faith is growing and I am looking forward very, very eagerly to Heaven. That’s where I want to go.

    A short personal story:6 years ago, I met a traditional priest and I ‘clicked’ with him as I click immediately with all traditional priests that I meet. And I said to him: “Father, my goal, my aim is to reach….Purgatory” ( in my simple mind, once I am in Purgatory, I am all right , Jack, sort of things….). He nearly scolded me : ” No, no, you aim for Heaven, nothing below…And I realized then fully that indeed THAT is where we must aim, that’s where we dearly want to go… Of course, without doubt, I know fully well that I will need a lot of purification before SEEING G-d and that I am most certainly going to pay my debts.

    For the benefit of those who do not share our Faith, the ultimate would be martyrdom: to be killed for our Faith, while proclaiming loudly that Jesus Christ is our Saviour, our G-d Who came on Earth, Who humiliated Himself to save us…What a story…How I wish I could transmit that story to all.

    You’ve told me of your worst fears and I have told you that I understand them. Today, these days, I am frozen when I read of the daily occurences of murders, desacrations of churches, persecutions of Christians, vandalizing of chapels, cemeteries, actions which seem to indicate a (nearly) general assault on the Catholic Church and other Christian groups. The Catholic Church remains the No,1 target…

    We keep our Faith, our rosaries. With respect.

  36. P.R.Margeot says:

    VERITAS: Do you believe in transsubstantiation ?

  37. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    // P.R.Margeot January 10, 2013 at 12:18 pm #
    VERITAS: Do you believe in transsubstantiation ?//

    A fun subject, for me anyway. Of course I do not believe it, it sound silly and illogical. But if you were able to show the process by which it happens in reality, steps that anyone could check to see if they actually do occur, then I might understand. But of course, if you do manage to do this in a manner that does not strain the credulity, there will be that most difficult of question still to answer. And that would be, exactly how do you know this?

    Now, do you want to play still PR?

  38. P.R.Margeot says:

    Mr de Fleuriot, first of all I was not addressing you, but Veritas….unless…..you and Veritas are the same one. For you too, I think I know how your mind works.

    So, it is all fun to you, hey ? You amuse yourself in writing in the S.C. to tease and irritate Catholics !!! You being a superior mind, having been ‘liberated’ from all this silly stuff of religion, etc, are now at ease to tease others, to enjoy reading their reaction, your mind is at the same time stimulated by any encounter with all these superstitious Catholics. Whow, what a life, Michel de Fleuriot, I know you are at ease in your circle of free thinkers, I have seen pictures of you, life is great, these meetings you have with those like-minded friends of yours must be great and exhilirating experiences which you cherish.

    I will leave others to debate with you on Atheism, free thinking etc. I will not waste my time with you. The only time I will spend on you is to pray for you and the salvation of your soul when you die. And it could be tonight, Mike de Fleuriot.

    Laugh at me, mock me your heart content. I could not care one bit.

    You still have not told me how you fare on the muslim and Jewish sites. A direct question to you which you are not answering. How are you received on these sites? When you tell us that you do not push your ideas there, but concentrate on ‘soft’ targets, I may believe you. You are probably stiff scared of the non-Christian sites. Yes or no ?

    I will repeat that I do not believe that you (and Veritas) are free to propagate your poison here. I urge others to ignore you completely. But pray for you I will carry on doing. I want you to be saved for eternity.

  39. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    As with most theist, PR refuses to engage in the debate, but that is understandable, given that he realises the trap that has been set for him. With regards to his interest in my activities on “hard” theistic sites, I treat them the same as I do the Catholics. I learn their dogma and examine them for the logical fallacies in them, and then I point these out to the believers. In other words, I treat all theists the same. For me, you folk are scared self limiting humans who want to be servants. You have no respect for your own life, and though this no respect for other peoples lives. You make up arbitrary rules which have no basis in reality, for your own convenience and control over others.

    And when called on this, you give the imitation of a snake oil salesman, that would make such a person envious. For an example of this, see the reply to my question on transubstantiation. Dishonesty, thee name is theism.

  40. P.R.Margeot says:

    So is Veritas Mike de Fleuriot? You seem to have answered for him. That’s what I did not want.
    Veritas, Mike de Fleuriot may well be the same. Very intelligent if so.

    I am leaving you now and will let your progressive friends to ‘engage, discuss with you, and entertain’ us. Or could they also be too busy right now ?

    I find it strange that such a character as you should stick to the S.C. Good sign. You are desparately searching for the Truth, you KNOW that G-d exists, you have a conscience(THAT’S G-D all right, like it or not).Your cat or doggie does not have a conscience, but you,created in the image of G-d do have one. That conscience works non-stop. You should be grateful that you have one.

    Mike de Fleuriot : I leave you here, keep reading the S.C. you may fall on something worthwhile, good, that you like, that may touch you. G-d acts in strange ways, tomorrow morning you may wake up and wondering what hit you during the night. With humility, you will realize that G-d touched you. It can happen.

    I appeal to all readers to pray for you: they do not need to advertize the fact. When you are ready, please pray for me as well : I need it.

    I wish you well, good health, for what is left of your journey on earth.

    You have a patronym which is above most : MICHAEL, St Michael the Archangel, the Defender of the Holy Church, the one who threw Satan in Hell just after vthe Creation. Pray him, think of him.

  41. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    How do you know this PR, I understand and accept you Believe this, but believe and know do not mean the same thing. No, they really do not.

  42. P.R.Margeot says:

    Oremus pro invicem

  43. Mike de Fleuriot says:

    I win, when you start chanting magic at me.

  44. P.R.Margeot says:

    Look at your picture above, Michel/Mike de Fleuriot, look at this devilish picture. Where is the beauty in it ?; Avatar.whatever.
    Listen ,mate, am done with you. Frankly, I have told you what I do for you every day: I pray for your soul when it appears for judgement, that here on earth you may find some peace and tranquility.
    You may think you are witty and funny: believe me, you are not. Now I leave your good friends to interact with you.
    And don’t forget to let us know how you fare on the Muslim and Jewish sites ! But stay on this site here, you may learn things, you may be touched by something, some idea, you may be saved even…

  45. Veritas says:

    no I am not Mike!

    I don’t believe in transubstantiation, on an atomic/molecular scale the concept is nonsensical.

    You have no idea what I do and don’t believe. I’m rather disappointed that Christian would make such broad assumptions about what I think and who I am

  46. P.R.Margeot says:

    Thank you for your honesty. I assumed that you were M.de Fleuriot and a Catholic, practicing as well, and that (mainly) only Catholics write comments here. I was wrong. I am curious to know how many people read this S.C. and from where in the world. Only the Editor could tell us I suppose.

    You do not state what you are. Atheist like M.de Fleuriot? But I thank you for your humility. I am afraid I cannot be of much use in exchanging news/debating great ideas, I have a very very average mind and need to study a lot, a lot more. I leave it to two other commenters here who might perhaps be interested to exchange with you all sorts of ideas.They are redoubtable debaters !

    Just one word of warning , which I say in a friendly way. If you are searching like M.de Fleuriot, for the Truth, for some happiness on earth, well and good. You may find here and there an idea, a good one, a new idea, a profitable exchange with some others. But if you came here to confront, challenge, deride, abuse the Catholic Church and believers, and push an atheist line, then caveat….

    M.de Fleuriot writes here because he has found an ” apparent” soft spot and in a sense he is right in that since the council, the Holy Church has been turned upside down,has opened to the world, has adopted the world, promotes MAN and his rights, has allowed the Revolution to take over completely. However , as you know, there is bad news for the progressives/ liberals/ revolutionaries : the Pope is steering the Church to safer waters while she is still taking water….
    We live in exciting times.

    If ever you tell us more about yourself and where you stand, it might be a pleasure to exchange.

    Keep well & regards.

  47. Veritas says:

    I have plenty of happiness thanks. What I did was to stop looking for it and accept that I already have it.

    I could never be a Catholic because I don’t think the Pope is infallible. We know He isn’t because He makes apologies for the mistakes of previous Popes. We also know that hiding child-rape is wrong, but that is what Ratzinger did. Very hard to look up to this guy and all the trappings of state – trapping that Jesus would sell and use to help the poor.

  48. P.R.Margeot says:

    Just a quick line or two Veritas.

    If I follow you well, you are not a Catholic and never was.

    The Pope is not infallible in every pronouncement he makes. In Vatican II, no infallibity was invoked.

    I always said that the Church had/has her warts and all,but she is the True Church, founded by Jesus Christ. She is being saved by the traditional wing, and more importantly by the M.O.A.T. which has been saved by the tradis….Outside the Church there is no salvation. G-d has permitted that His Church should suffer: we do not question G-d ever. That some Popes were bad, that’s a fact.

    But Veritas, be honest : how can you come on this Catholic site and be (a little) like Michel/Mike de Fleuriot? However, you are more civil and gentle than he is and I can see more humility in you.

    Do you frequent Muslims and Jews and challenge them on their sites ?? If yes, do let me know which sites they are and under which name you write there. Mr de Fleuriot cannot answer my question. He attacks what he perceives as weakness. So do not waste your time here, mind you you may find two dedicated commenters who apparently do not quite like what I write and will therefore engage with you. They are wasting their time I believe. But they will come back to engage you, I am sure.

    Good night, may your guardian angel watch over you during this night.

  49. P.R.Margeot says:

    I wrote “Michel” de Fleuriot above. That’s wrong, I am sorry, I should always stick to ‘Mike de Fleuriot’ as he wants to be known. And I will ,IF I have to refer to him.
    So, to end all this, I will ask him again if he does defend his theses/ideas on other sites, particularly the Muslim and Jewish sites. What really interests me is how he is received there….
    I have my ideas on all this of course, but I would dearly like to hear the commenter tell us of his experience.

  50. P.R.Margeot says:

    Mr de Fleuriot , any reaction? About where else do you pour your venom ? We are waiting.
    Or are you scared? Be a man and tell us if you do indeed debate with the Muslim and Jewish people. I will respect you for saying : NO, I do not venture there.